Yolanda Haynes - Breaking into Tech: It Takes Time

Show Notes:

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Transcript:

Bekah Hawrot Weigel: 00:03

Hello and welcome to Season 5, Episode 4 of the Virtual Coffee podcast. I'm Bekah. And this is a podcast that features members of the Virtual Coffee community. Virtual Coffee is an intimate group of developers at all stages of their coding journey. And they're here, on this podcast, sharing their stories and what they've learned. And we're here to share it with you. Here with me today is my cohost, Dan.

Dan Ott: 00:28

Yo! What's up, Bekah! Today, we talked with Yolanda Haynes. Yolanda is a career changer. She was previously working in healthcare as a certified occupational therapy assistant and switched to doing development. And so, we talked about her decision-making process through that, her journey through, you know, learning, learning on your own, then some bootcamp stuff. She did 100Devs and The Collab Lab, which I was like -- which she shared a lot about. And it sounds like a very cool ... experience for her. And ... yeah, I don't know. What else did we talk about? [Chuckles]

Bekah: 01:05

No. I love being able to talk to her journey and ... hear what she ... thinks, like, in retrospect of that journey. Because I -- there's-

Dan: 01:14

Yeah.

Bekah: 01:15

-always that, "I wanna do all of the things and try all of the things. And everybody else is going so fast, and I'm going slow or not at the same pace." And she talks about, you know, the impacts of being a mom on that. And so, it's really great to hear those reflections because I think they're super insightful for anybody who's learning anything, really.

Dan: 01:37

Yeah, absolutely. No, I- I- I love hearing about it too. And I always wonder, you know, I- I started out doing all this stuff long before there are any bootcamps, you know, at all. I always wonder ... how if, you know, how- how things might've been different if there -- that- that was available at the time. And now, there's of course too many options [laughs]. But it's like, swung the other way. But it was- it was cool hearing it from Yolanda. Cuz she's -- she tried a few different -- or did a few different things and I think, it was pretty suc- successful at all of them. And --

Bekah: 02:08

Yeah, for sure. She did an excellent job, like, piecemealing together a pretty good educational path for herself. And like you said, that could be really hard. Cuz there- there is so much out there and you kind of have to wade through a lot of different things to figure out what works for you and gets you where you need to be.

Dan: 02:28

Yeah, absolutely. Well, we had a great time talking with Yolanda and I know you're going to enjoy listen to it.

Bekah: 02:35

We start every episode of the podcast like we start every Virtual Coffee. We introduce ourselves with our name, where we're from, what we do, and random check-in question. We hope you enjoy this episode. Today's random check-in question is, what's your go-to snack when you don't feel like making a full meal? So, my name is Bekah. I am a technical community builder from a small town in Ohio. And for the last three days, I've eaten chips and salsa for almost every single meal. So, that is, for sure, my- my go-to answer here.

Dan: 03:14

Chips and salsa always good. Hi, I'm Dan. I do web development from -- in Cleveland, Ohio. And ... yeah, I dunno. I- I- I think, in those situations, I like to go the, you know, lowest effort possible. If I -- if there's, like, apples in the fridge, that's gonna be- that's gonna be a big one, you know? I'm just, like, kinda take it out and eat it. Or a banana or something like that, you know? If there's, like, other snacks --

Bekah: 03:39

You keep your apples in the fridge? Are you supposed to do that?

Dan: 03:42

I think it keeps them fresher long -- fresh longer maybe? I- I don't know. I like when they're cold. I don't- I don't know why [laughs]. But the -- I- I just always have -- I don't ... I don't know. Now- now- now I don't know [laughs].

Bekah: 04:00

I wasn't sure if I was doing it wrong or-

Dan: 04:02

I don't think there's, like --

Bekah: 04:03

-just some preference.

Dan: 04:03

I- I think it's just like -- was like store-bought ones, especially. It just keeps them fresh longer. It, like, you know, makes them last longer. I think that's- I think that's main -- the main thing. There's nothing wrong.

Bekah: 04:11

Well, like tomatoes, you don't keep in the fridge. Cuz then they get grainy. But apples don't, right?

Dan: 04:17

I- I don't know [Dan and Bekah laugh]. That's it. That's all I got. I- I -- my- my cold apples, that's my snack [laughs].

Yolanda Haynes: 04:29

Well, hello. My name is Yolanda. I'm from San Diego, California, and my role is a junior software engineer. My go-to snack, it's -- or easy meal. So, there's this Japanese thing called Ochazuke. And that's the- the easiest meal I can make. It's rice, hot water, and there's like a packet of ... flavor. And then you just kind of pour hot water over that packet of flavor and rice. And that is like the easiest meal. It's not really a snack. But it's my go-to when I don't feel like cooking at all. The rice keeps me full. And it's just, like, this hot water, it's just a ... a blend of happiness [laughs].

Bekah: 05:04

Mm.

Yolanda: 05:05

So, that- that is kind of my go-to easy meal slash snack. But I did not know you weren't supposed to put tomatoes in the fridge. Cuz I do it [chuckles].

Bekah: 05:18

I've heard that it makes some grainy [laughs].

Yolanda: 05:21

But I keep my apples on the counter. So, I don't know.

Bekah: 05:26

Tomatoes go really bad fast too if you keep them on the counter. So you just have to eat them really quickly. I feel like --

Yolanda: 05:33

[Whispers] Got it.

Bekah: 05:34

I don't know. I -- one of my favorite things I've done in the last year, I always saw, like, you could buy packet of rice that you heat up in the microwave. It's like 90 seconds. And I'm like, "It doesn't even take that long to make rice. Why would you do that?" And now, I have like a cupboard stash full of [chuckles] 90-second rice. Cuz it's so easy [laughs].

Yolanda: 05:53

Is it- is it good? I- I- I don't think I've tried that.

Bekah: 05:56

It's decent. I like to buy the jasmine rice. And that -- I feel like it's probably better than what I make on the stove top, because I normally forget that I'm making rice. And then I'm, like, also way more likely to burn it. So [chuckles] you cannot -- well, as far as I know, you can't burn it in the microwave. I could probably find a way to do that too though [chuckles].

Yolanda: 06:17

I guess it's opposite for me. Asian household. So I have a rice cooker. And it's always ... there's always rice. There's never a time [inaudible] isn't rice. So, it's just ... I- I don't think I've ever burnt rice. Cuz rice cooker kind of -- it's easy peasy just to kind [inaudible].

Bekah: 06:32

Oh, I think I burnt it in the rice cooker before [Yolanda gasps]. I think I had to throw away my rice cooker [laughs].

Dan: 06:40

[Laughs] Yeah. Should've put it in the fridge.

Bekah: 06:45

Well, this is not a podcast about all of the ways I've ruined food. So, we will go ahead and talk about what we're really here to talk about. And that is Yolanda. So, we're so happy to have you here with us, and we always like to start off with your origin story. So, you know, where are you from and how have you gotten to this point in your tech journey?

Yolanda: 07:08

Oof, good question. Let me try to make it short. I don't want to take too much of the time. So, I born and raised in San Diego. I've -- I'm a career changer. So I used to work in healthcare before I became a software engineer. But my start off the journey was probably my first ... PC — family PC. I wanna say it was a Windows 3.1 — was the OS. And I thought I was a bad-ass by taking apart my family computer. And, you know, just saying, "Oh, okay. This is- this is what the inside of the computer looks like." You know- you know, I unplug everything. I think it's called like a VGA cable, the HDMI -- I don't even think there was HDMI back then. But just all the cables, and then open up the family computer, and- and was just try to take out some stuff, and- and then I'm like, "Okay, let me put it back together." And I thought, "Oh, I'm a hacker now." Like, "I can- I can do this." [Laughs] So that was probably my first taste of tech, was kind of doing that. And then --

Bekah: 08:11

So, you did put it back successfully though? Cuz I was waiting for, "And then it didn't work."

Yolanda: 08:15

I mean, yeah. I don't remember getting in trouble or anything breaking. I think, literally, it was just unplugging everything, opening the computer case, and maybe take out a RAM? I- I am not quite sure. And then, just kind of, you know, put everything together, and then turn on the computer, and it worked as if nothing happened. So --

Bekah: 08:38

Nice.

Yolanda: 08:38

Yeah. That was kind of -- I was very curious, and I like to work with my hands [chuckles]. So, that was -- that kept me busy. And then, I played a lot of those free games that came with the computer. So, I think Space Cadet was the one -- it's like a pinball machine. And there was like a -- it- it came with a computer free trial or whatever, and we didn't, you know, buy games. So that was play the same pinball machine over and over again. And then, I started learning how to type was in middle school cuz they had those typing program classes. So, I really enjoyed that, got a really good knack at that. And then high school, I started messing around with trying to fix other people's computer. I was helping out a neighbor messing with their BIOS cuz they had ... at that time was Windows Vista, and she just had some difficulties with that. And then -- but I had to had my now husband — back then was my boyfriend's — help, cuz he was also into tech. So, college, I was thinking of doing computer science. So I took a Comp Sci 101 class. And then, I had a friend [chuckles], I -- and they told me like, "Oh, yeah. You gotta be really smart and really good to find a job in this field." And at that time, oof, this was over- over 15 years ago. We didn't have the nice GUIs that we have today. So when you, you know, try to — I think it was Java — and compile it, it gives you an error. And it says, "Oh, between lines this and that." But there's no red squiggly lines. It was just, like, find what's wrong with it. And I would spent hours just trying to find what I missed. And there'll be a misspelling, or a semi-colon, you know, something- something basic. But I wrote the code, so I didn't see it, you know? When I asked my friend, you know, they'll see it. And they're like, "Oh, yeah. It's- it's- it's right there. And I'm like, "Oh, thanks." But he's like, "Yeah. If you wanna find a job in this field, you gotta be, like, really smart." And I'm like, "Oh, that's- that's- that's not me." So, I- I ... sticked with my original major, which- which was Japanese, cuz I was thinking of going to the linguistics route then. And so I graduated with that, with a minor in media arts and technology, cuz I still wanted some sort of tech ... learning. So that's what I did. Then I went abroad, worked and taught English in Japan for about two years, and then came back, and thought, "Oh, what am I gonna do?" Then I did occupational therapy assistant route. So I was in that field for about five to six years. Then COVID hit, lost my hours, then I learned how to code. So, that's where I started my coding journey, October of 2020. Then I found a job, December of 2021. So, kind of took a little over a year. And here I am, with you guys, today [laughs].

Bekah: 11:28

[Chuckles] That's awesome. You have like a couple career pivots, right? Because your major is Japanese in Utah, and then you did the occupational therapy route, and then, came over to tech.

Yolanda: 11:40

Yes. It was a windy, windy journey. I mean, I had other jobs. I think I was an afterschool program aid. Then I was a dance instructor in between, so I- I did a lot of odd jobs here and there ... before ... right here ... where I am today.

Bekah: 11:55

That's awesome. And I know as you're learning, I wanna talk about your learning journey, cuz I think that you've done a lot of cool things. And in- in somewhere along the line, you also had a kid. And so, that impacts your journey too. So, let's maybe not talk about the kid yet, and [Yolanda chuckles] talk about, you know, what- what organizations -- or- or what ... like ... things did you do to help you stay on track with learning how to code?

Yolanda: 12:30

Hmm. Good question. I think -- so I tried -- a couple of times trying to learn how to code. I definitely bought a Udemy course, and it was, like, "Here's how to build your first website or a complete website." So I did that from start to finish, and then thinking, "Oh, okay. That's it?" I think that was, like, 2015, or later, or earlier, or, yeah. Sorry, my time's off. But -- so, I did that. And then, nothing came about. And then, I wanted to do a career change with another friend who was also a COTA [Certified Occupational Therapy Assistant]. And we were like, "Oh, we need to figure out, like, how are we gonna -- what's the, you know, the end goal?" Cuz we can't keep transferring patients in our 60s or 70s. I mean, technically we can. But it's not best on our body. So, we were like, "Okay, maybe we should, like, really focus on learning how to code." So we tried the Odin project.

Bekah: 13:21

Mm.

Yolanda: 13:21

And then, [laughs] I tried that. And then, she had some -- she had to deal with some, you know, family stuff. So, she had to put that on pause, and I was by myself again. I'm like, "Oh, okay." So, that didn't ... happen. And then, I found a 100Devs Leon's class, and it was like a free bootcamp. My husband found it, like, I think, through Reddit. And I thought, "Oh, okay. Well, it's free. I lost my hours during this pandemic in 2020. It wouldn't hurt." So, that's how I started really focusing on learning how to code because the community was just there. There was a lot of people I could just kind of rely on and have that accountability. So I did that, while doing part-time work, while taking care of the kid. And just being in that community was helpful. And then, during that commun- learning, I -- my teacher, or Leon, said like, "Oh, networking is very important. And then, I found Virtual Coffee -- no, I found somebody posted, say, "Hey, you should check out Virtual Coffee." And that was, like, November of 2020. And, yeah. And then, I just kind of ... listened to all the devs in there, you know, or people in tech, their journey, how they studied or, you know, their explanation of things. And that was helpful. So I kind of tried to combine listening to that, doing Leon's class, and, of course, doing outside stuff like the freeCodeCamp. I dabbled into it a little bit, trying to solidify those basic foundations. And there are other free courses. I think there's, like, Scrimba that I probably, you know, dabbled in. So, here and there. But I definitely was one of those people that ... bite off way more than I can chew. So [laughs], I think it's the fear of missing out. That was like the- the number one thing. Like, "I gotta do them all."

Bekah: 15:07

Mm, yeah.

Yolanda: 15:07

"I have to. If I don't, I'm not gonna get it." So, Leon's class, freeCodeCamp, Scrimba, alrite. Networking, Virtual Coffee, you know, these other communities. I got to do them all because if I don't, you know, I'm not gonna be successful. And, yeah [chuckles]. Definitely burnt out here and there throughout the journey.

Bekah: 15:27

Can you tell us a little bit more about Learn With Leon? We've had a- a big influx of 100Devs. And I think somebody told us that ... his post about 100Devs was one of the top two most viewed posts on Reddit or something like that. So, it's really taken off recently. But I've heard a lot of positive experiences from there. And I'm just curious, like, how things work with that.

Yolanda: 15:56

Yeah. I -- this year is just crazy amount of people who joined. I think, the first session Leon had, like, 7000 views on his Twitch. And that is-

Bekah: 16:07

Wow.

Yolanda: 16:08

-that was just crazy. When I started, I wanna say we had about 3000 at the start? Maybe two? And that- and that was, like, his somewhat first time of doing it. I think you had a five week of course, prior to doing the 100Devs. But when he did the official 100Devs in October of 2020, I think there was about two, maybe 3000 of us. One guy, Leon, does live Twitch streaming twice a week for three hours, and then, he has office hours for three hours. And then, we just kind of go -- he does live coding, and then we follow along, and then he assigns homework. So, the experience, this is my first bootcamp. So there's nothing much for me to base or compare it to.

Bekah: 16:52

Mm-hmm.

Yolanda: 16:52

And I've tried to learn how to code on my own, and I failed miserably [laughs]. So, yeah. Leon's class helped me, at least solidify that foundation and allowed me to kind of expand my skill sets through that. So, I liked it because it helped me ... [sighs] stay focused, I guess, is -- and- and not do too many things at once. So, I thought, "Okay, Leon's class. Let me just commit this. Class is Tuesday, Thursday. I have to be on class." So, I would change my work schedule to make sure I make it to those class. Because I'm one of those people, if I miss a class, I- I don't know if I have enough time to play catch up. So, if I ... make it -- if I'm sex- sussex- successful -- oh, I can't even say this word [Bekah and Dan chuckle] is -- then, you know, if I'm at that class, I -- I'm there. I'm gonna learn. And the chances of me to be ... to find a job in the end will help me, then I- I will do whatever I can. So, you know, I talk to my husband, and say, "Hey, can you watch the little one?" Okay. Talk to all my patients, "Hey, I'm -- this block, I can't see you because I'm busy." So -- and it was helpful for -- to establish that. And then, I relied on that Discord community. Because when I have questions about homework, I'll reach out, say, "Hey, I don't get it. I don't understand JavaScript. I don't -- it doesn't make any sense to me," you know? And then, going through Virtual Coffee, I was like, "I s- I don't get JavaScript. I -- am I ever gonna get it?" Like, "I -- how do you guys get it?" And it's -- it was very comforting to hear stories, you know? People would say, "Yeah, it- it sucks at first. It- it's gonna click. It's going to take some time. Don't worry about it." Or, "Hey, try these resources. It might click seeing it this way." So ... I hope that answered your question. I think I- I went -- I deviated. I'm sorry.

Bekah: 18:45

No. That was great.

Dan: 18:49

We're all about mean- meandering topics here [laughs]. It's- it's the best way to -- it's the best way to be.

Bekah: 18:58

Were- were the hours -- the office hours live stream too?

Yolanda: 19:01

Yes. So, he was live ... originally, it was- it was on Saturdays. And then, he switched it to Sundays for three hours. So, I think, in the beginning, it was like homework review. And then, it became more of just, "Hey, if you have questions, I'll answer it." So, he'll open up and there'll be like a flood gates of questions. And he'll- he'll answer it live. So, sometimes, it'll be about the homework. Sometimes, it'll just be about the dev journey, or, you know, s-s- about not understanding the syntax of something. And he'll go over it. Or he'll try to show it in a different way. So, for me, that was helpful because it just kind of ... that review was- was nice. So, I liked it. It was helpful.

Dan: 19:49

That's- that's really cool. I- I mean, that's a- a pretty interesting, and I think, pretty unique ... approach. And it sounds -- well, I mean, a lot of people seem pretty into it. So ... it's cool.

Yolanda: 19:59

Yeah. It's -- I think it's cool.

Dan: 20:02

Mm.

Yolanda: 20:02

Just a lot of work. Because it's ... you have to put in the effort. I -- like I said, I don't have any other bootcamp experience. So, this is, like, really relying on yourself and others.

Bekah: 20:15

Mm-hmm.

Yolanda: 20:16

And from -- I guess what I've heard what other people who's been through bootcamp, and physically been through bootcamp, there's this kind of nice face-to-face, you know? You could directly ask the teacher exactly at that moment when you have, you know, questions. And the accountability, I have a feeling is much higher doing in-person bootcamp. And then, also, you pay. So, you really want to make sure that you complete this bootcamp. While this was free, but it kinda give you that ... if you have other priorities, you don't feel like you have to pick one or the other. You could always try to play catch up. And there's no money lost, only time. Which is ... not a bad thing [chuckles]. But I like it. It was enjoyable. And I'm helping out right now as a mod [moderator]. So, trying to give back-

Dan: 21:02

Oh, nice. That's nice. Well, that's cool.

Yolanda: 21:03

-with what I can.

Dan: 21:05

That's really cool. I -- and I- I -- you said something about ... you know, when you -- when- when you first started this, how- how it helped you, you know, sort of focus your learning energy, or [laughs] you know, like, kind of direct it. And I think that's a -- I think that's something I wanted to call it too, is it's- it's an important thing to do. And it- and it's one of the -- when people are talking about learning, you know, and they're- and they're just starting out, it's- it's one of the biggest reasons for- for- for doing some sort of class, something structured. A bootcamp, or a- a course, or- or the 100Devs, you know, style or whatever. But there is -- our -- there's just so much that you could learn, right? [Chuckles] And it's almost impossible to just, on your own, when you- when you don't know anything to start. It's almost impossible to self-direct yourself through ... without- without a plan, you know what I mean?

Yolanda: 21:55

[Whispers] Right.

Dan: 21:55

So, we've -- I've- I've- I've heard other stories, you know, it's kinda similar experiences of, you know, being like, just going all over the place [chuckles], stuff- stuff getting overloaded, right? And then ... yeah. And then- and then, like, something like a course or whatever will- will just, like, help you kind of narrow it down. I think, it's important. I'm- I'm glad it obviously worked out -- [chuckles] worked well for you.

Yolanda: 22:17

It did.

Dan: 22:18

It's cool. Yeah.

Yolanda: 22:18

[Chuckles] It did. I had to, like, think about it too. I was like, "What's the best way to describe this, you know, feeling and experience?" And I -- and the best one I could think of is, you know, when you go into, like, an all-you-can-eat sushi bar, or like, you know, a buffet, and you are just overwhelmed with this plethora of, like, food. And you're like, "Where do I start? I'm gonna eat it all." And that's what I feel like [laughs] when this is -- the starting of the coding journey. It's like -- people was like, "Oh, you gotta learn -- you should learn Python. You should learn j- excuse me, Java, JavaScript, HTML, CSS. And you're like, "Okay, sure." So, I'm, like, going down the buffet line and just grabbing different stuffs [laughs]. And that's- that's how it felt, like, in the beginning. I was like, "Okay, I should grab them all. I need to grab them all. If I don't, I'm gonna miss out. And if I miss out, I'm gonna miss, you know, I won't know the taste of this delicious food." And I feel like, that's how it was in the beginning, before I finally slowed down to one plate [Yolanda and Dan chuckle].

Bekah: 23:15

I love it. That's such a great analogy. And people often ask too, like, "Well, what are you interested in doing?" And- and kind of like you're saying, like, well, you haven't had a taste of everything. So if you are -- wanna know what you're interested in, then I guess you should probably sample all of the things, you know? Which is really not ... probably, like, it's -- I think, it's really hard to know what you're interested in, until you really have tried it for awhile.

Yolanda: 23:40

That's true. It's like asking a kid, "What do you wanna be when you grew up?" I mean, they could answer. But it's always changing. And ... I don't know. If I were a kid, I feel like, for me at least, it's like, "I wanna do -- I wanna be a pediatrician. No, I like animals. I wanna be a vegetarian." It was just like ... I don't know what I really wanna do. I still don't know.

Bekah: 23:58

My daughter once said, she was like, "I either want to be a princess, a cat, or a doctor." And I was like, "Alrite. Well, that seems pretty easy, doctor." [Laughs]

Dan: 24:08

[Chuckles] Go for- go for- go for cat. Cat seems like a really good life [chuckles]. If- if you, I mean, if you have a good home anyway. I feel like if you're a cat, you have it set, right? [Laughs] Yeah. No, that's a great point. And you know what? Honestly, it- it -- so, when- when you were talking about you're -- you were in college and the intro to CS class, and sort of made that choice to, you know, that's an experience a lot of people have too. And, like, you're talking about what do you wanna be when you grow up when you're a kid, but that question, like, hangs around forever, you know? There's not like a- a thing, and that -- there's not a point where that can, you know ... maybe you've found something that you're fine with or whatever, but it's always as we've approved [chuckles] possible to change, right? But that experience of, like, going into freshman year is ... so fraught, that sort of stuff, you know? And ... those, like, it's funny how those- those -- I- I just keep thinking about your- your friend telling you that you had to be smart to do this or whatever. And you know, when you're a- a freshman and everything's overwhelming. And I feel like you're still probably, like, trying to take stuff off of the buffet. It's just a different buffet, right? [Laughs] And ... how- how, like, one- one sentence, like that can- can change, like, what you, you know, your whole ... life, really, you know? Like, I don't really have a point [laughs] other than I was just -- I just keep thinking about, you know, I just keep coming back to that. Cuz I -- I've had -- I mean, I had experiences like that in college too, you know? And I changed majors a few times and ... all of that stuff, including being in computer science major, and I changed to English instead of Japanese. So, it was- it was a little- a little easier for me [laughs]. Although, you know, now that I think of it, I was signed up for a Japanese class, like, first semester of freshman year and ... well, I didn't- I didn't -- I dropped that- that class very quickly because [laughs] it was -- it didn't well -- it didn't work out well for me. But I feel like it might've been early in the morning too? I don't know. It wasn't the right fit [laughs] for me.

Yolanda: 26:04

Morning classes are hard, regardless of the subject.

Dan: 26:09

I'm trying to find, like, a point of what I was saying. I don't really have a point other than I was affected by that -- by- by your story. And it- it's just, like, an interesting thing to think about.

Bekah: 26:18

But it's -- it is true. I mean, the things that you say to other people matter. And it might be an off the cuff thing. But, you know, we- we talked about this in Virtual Coffee. Like, the- the impact of your words does matter. And I remember I had a student. My first or second semester teaching freshman English. And I always tried to write something positive on everybody's paper. And he ... I think, was ... taking this course for -- this was not his first time taking the course. And he came up to me after the class and he said, thank you so much for saying whatever nice thing I've said. He was like, "I have never had any teacher say anything nice about my writing. It's always been, you know, red marks or negative comments." And it -- that kind of thing just made such a huge impression. Because, you know, one- one small remark, and it made a total difference in- in all the- the way that he communicated and his investment in the class. And I think that positive or negative, that's- that's what it does. And, you know, unfortunately I think women have experienced a lot of negativity and gatekeeping in more scientific or technical fields — at least many stories that I've heard. So, it's definitely something that- that I hope gets better. And I appreciate people telling stories about that. So we're aware of that kind of thing. So, 100Devs isn't the only program you did, right? You -- did you also do Collab Lab?

Yolanda: 27:57

I did. Yes. So I was in Collab Lab summer of last year from July to August? June to August? Something like that. So, yeah. Another community I am happy to be in and help out. So love that- love that ... team, people ... everyone [chuckles].

Bekah: 28:15

Do you wanna talk a little bit about what they're -- The Collab Lab does?

Yolanda: 28:20

Yeah. Oh, I hope I do ... justice. It's an awesome, awesome group -- or organization, where they help ... people who are new to the industry and teach them how to collaborate in a team on a project. So, you are given a ... you are -- actually, you- you have to apply to- to join Collab Lab. And once they accept your application, then you are put in the team of four new developers, and then about two to three mentors. And then, it's a eight week, I think ... process or journey, where you create a React app. It's like a shopping cart. Everybody does the same thing. It's the same application throughout other teams. And then, from start to finish, you build your- your application. So -- and then, it just kind of ... every week, we go through kind of what we've learned ... ooh, hold on. Sorry. Let me try to think what else. And then, every week, you are paired up with another dev. So, it's like you, plus another dev. And you work on this small task that's been given to you. And we go through, like, the GitHub repo. You're assigned the task, and then, there's, like, acceptance criteria. So they try to mimic a real life's work scenario. So, in that week time span, we have to try to complete that task and push it, so the mentors could take a look at the -- do a code review. And then, we also do a code review of our partners or the other teams ... code. And then, they teach us, like, how to do a proper code review. You can't just say, "Everything looks good. Thumbs up," you know? Try to give a better feedback. Like, "Oh, what does this do?" Or, "I don't understand this. Can you explain it better," type of comments. And then, if it looks good, then the mentor will give, like, a thumbs up kinda thing, and then, we push it to- to that main branch. And do -- and then you -- the second week, you get paired with a different dev. So it gives you that collaboration and getting used to working with- with different people. So, the team I'm on -- was on, was a fantastic team. I wasn't strong in React, so they definitely helped me get a -- gain a better understanding and kind of teach me through it. And I just learned what AC was, which was Acceptance Criteria, you know? And then, when you do the GitHub, there's like a template, and then, try to give it that nice structure of when- when you commit the code. So, it's not just code. You're explaining exactly what you're committing, you know, instead of trying to have the other people guess what you're committing. So, that was really nice. And then, they talked about accessibility. And ... it- it was -- it's -- it was an awesome program. I hope I did it justice. I'm like -- it was like a really-

Bekah: 31:08

Well, we --

Yolanda: 31:09

-terrible explanation [chuckles].

Bekah: 31:10

No, I think you did a really good job. And we'll have a link to it so everybody can check it out afterwards. We've had a lot of Virtual Coffee members go through Collab Lab. And I really appreciate that ... the collaboration that's focused on. Because I -- my bootcamp experiences similar issuers [??] in that. It was like self-paced. I was- I was really by myself. There wasn't a lot of, like, one-on-one meetings, or ... any collaboration happening, which it's -- and made it doable for me at the time. But like, in retrospect, I feel like I needed to make more of an effort to do those types of collaboration, because then, it was, like, kind of a learning curve to figure out how to communicate about things and when to communicate about things. So, did you feel like that collaboration -- what- what was the learning curve from where you were when you started to have those good quality collaborative meetings?

Yolanda: 32:16

Ooh, good question. I- I was going to apply ... I think it was their ... spring cohort? The beginning of the year. And I think that was after a month of just learning JavaScript. I reached out to another Virtual Coffee member, and ... either she applied or she just went through it. And she told me, "Hey," like, "Try the next one. Because you should have some sort of a good foundation before. Cuz they -- Collab Lab does not teach you how to code. It just teaches you-

Bekah: 32:47

Mm-hmm.

Yolanda: 32:47

-how to collaborate. So having that coding foundation is- is vital." So then, I pushed it until summer. So I started 100Devs at October of 2020, then I got into Collab Lab, let's say, like, July. So ... like, eight months? Seven, eight months? Sorry. I had to count [all laugh]. Before -- you know, I- I mean, even then, I- I didn't feel comfortable. I didn't think I was gonna get accepted to tell you the truth. Then, an- another 100Dev-er, she said, "Hey, you gotta shoot your shots. You don't know-

Bekah: 33:17

Yeah.

Yolanda: 33:17

-until you try." Cuz I- I have this, like, very low confidence, you know? I was like, "I'm not good enough," or "I'll- I'll need another year before I -- I'm -- I can even do X, Y, and Z." So, she's like, "Hey, if it doesn't work out, there's- there's no negative impact. Like, you just try again at the next cohort." I'm like, "Okay. Yeah, there's nothing wrong. There's no consequences." So, I applied in, lo and behold, I got accepted. So, I just thank to that person, that helped me out and pushed me for that. So, I- I think, I had, like, eight months ex- experience before I applied to Collab Lab. And then maybe a month of React experience. So, very little. Very, very baby chick stage of that [laughs].

Bekah: 34:00

[Chuckles] Do you feel like it helped you when you ... moved on?

Yolanda: 34:05

It helped ... me gain a better understanding of how collaboration works.

Bekah: 34:10

Mm-hmm.

Yolanda: 34:10

In the 100Devs, we did work on a team project. So that- that was helpful, but it's-

Bekah: 34:15

Nice.

Yolanda: 34:15

-a lot of newbies as well, [chuckles] you know, working on a project to- together. So, there was a lot of ... "I think this is what we're supposed to do," kinda thing. Or like, "How do we share the code?" Or, you know, "If- if one changed, do we just share it through, like, Google docs?" So, it was -- it's still a lot of how the process, kind of, "What do we do?" "I don't get it." So, it's a lot of builders with tools, and we're just eager to build, and we were like, "Okay, so what do we do now?" "What's a blueprint?" You know? [Laughs] It was like, "Oh, okay. Maybe we should do that first," kinda thing. And that's how it felt. And then, with Collab Lab, it's like, "Okay, you guys. This is the blueprint," you know? "This -- these are your roles." "This is our expectations of you," you know? "And this is -- you should finish this task," you know? And then, "Before you go on to the next one." "Don't worry about this," you know? "Don't worry about the color of the house yet. That's at the very end," you know? "Worry about building that ..." I don't know. I'm not a construction worker. So, you know, like, the foundation, the frame, you know? Focus on that first. So, for Collab Lab, I was taught, you know, "Focus on the ... kind of -- the functionality. Does it work?" You know, versus making it look pretty. Cuz I'm- I'm a visual person. So, I was like, "Oh, maybe it needs to look this way first." And they were like, "Yes, it should look this way," or, "It's great to look that way. But maybe, we should focus on ... does it work? Does this button work, no matter how ugly it is? [Laughs] Is it -- does it click? And if it clicks, does it go to or do its thing?" So, that's what I've learned is, "Oh, okay. There's this way of building things," which was, like, fantastic. And very different from what I've learned in 100Devs. So ... yeah.

Dan: 35:51

That's great. It sounds like a- a- a great learning experience. And- and something that I thought I would ... just having -- I mean, I haven't ever done it, obviously. But like, I- I would encourage anybody to do because that's sort of the ... you know, learning, like, actual coding is important, obviously [laughs]. But there's so much that goes into a job, or- or- or a project, or anything like that, that isn't just writing code, you know? And there's ... you know, lots of people have lots of trouble, like, getting kinda started up with any project or with, you know, in a new company if they don't have this sort of experience. And ... having that, like, confidence to, you know, to know like, "Okay, I know how to do code review," you know what I mean? "I know how to do ... oh, you know, pull requests even. All that -- all of us -- all this stuff, I know," you know? I ... just -- that it -- that it's like something that ... you know, to go through this level of practice at it, you know, it gives you that, like, the full confidence to ... "I don't even worry about it anymore," right? It almost becomes second nature, right? And so that -- so, like, if you go into a job interview, for instance, you don't have to, like, sweat about that part, [chuckles] you know? Anything you don't have to sweat about is- is good. And I think, usually, like, the job interviewers can probably tell. Like, when you're sweating, when you're not, about- about certain things, you know? And, you know, but work with people, it's -- it is -- it's been an important skill [laughs]. And it's hard to- hard to, like, display on a resume too, you know? So, The Collab Lab, you know, completing The Collab Lab thing is- is, like, a nice, like, easy- easy to point to, you know, thing. Oh, that's really cool.

Yolanda: 37:24

Yeah. It's like --

Bekah: 37:25

Yeah.

Yolanda: 37:25

Oh, sorry.

Bekah: 37:27

I was just gonna say, I think that you've done a great job, like, constructing your learning how to code journey through all of the opportunities that you've done, and, you know, all of the skills that you've learned. It feels like you've got a very well-rounded experience coming out of that.

Yolanda: 37:44

I -- yeah, I think so -- I hope so. I mean, [Bekah chuckles] better than when I try to do it on my own. So, [laughs] I- I cannot complain. It's ... you know, I- I just wished ... I wish I knew it was gonna take this long. Then I would have really-

Bekah: 37:58

Mm.

Yolanda: 37:58

-took my time with it and just kind of savor the taste instead of trying to rush and try everything [laughs] or do everything. But, yeah. I'm -- but- but then [sigh], it's just been helpful because ... awful -- but, you know, the, you know, the situation that we're all put in with COVID. And I don't know if I would be where I'm at today ... if it -- if that didn't happen. Because, you know-

Bekah: 38:21

Mm.

Yolanda: 38:22

-when I try to learn how to code, I was working, you know, 30, 40 hours and try to do coding on the side. But with COVID, I was able to focus, you know? And- and try to, you know, find the community that I felt comfortable in. And- and then just kind of, "Tada, here I am." [Laughs] [Dan chuckles] It's just -- it's- it's help- and it's very helpful to have these free communities too, you know? Virtual Coffee, 100Devs, Collab Lab, you know? It wasn't out of my pocket. So the money that I was able to save a lot goes through, you know, bills, food, or, you know, emergency, whatever. So, it's just ... it's really nice that this -- in this day and age, there's still a lot of people who want to help other people without ... you know, with the kindness of their heart and their time, you know? Cuz it's not- it's not an easy thing to do and ... yeah. Anyways [laughs] --

Dan: 39:15

Yeah, no. It- it -- that's important. It's just like you're helping with ... 100Devs, right? You're volunteering with them and stuff. It's- it's always cool to be able to, like, once you have ... s-some amount of time or- or space available to yourself, to ... you know, to be able to give back in ways since ... it's neat [??].

Bekah: 39:32

Yeah, well--

Dan: 39:32

It's cool that -- oh, go ahead.

Bekah: 39:34

I was gonna say too, like, you have done note-taking for us too at Virtual Coffee. And you're- you're usually there. You are on the west coast, but you are there, 6 AM, your time, frequently. And I- I just, I love to see it. I -- it's- it's so, you know ... I know, like, what a testament it is to your character, that you are so willing to give back and to support the communities that you've been a part of.

Yolanda: 40:02

Yeah. I think it's- it's because, you know, I- I feel comfortable being in the communi- community, you know? Virtual Coffee from the get-go. I think, I- I messaged you, Bekah, it was like- it was like love at first sight. That first meeting, I -- it was very- it was very nice. And I mean, I probably really doing it, get involved with Virtual Coffee, until months later. I know, like, Nerando would, like, edge me. Like, he was like, saying, "Hey, [unintelligible]." He was like, "What do you think, Yolanda?" Or like, "I want you to, you know, have a conversation too." Cuz I was mainly a fly on the wall in every meetup, you know? It's just like, I just wanna listen [chuckles]. Cuz I feel at that time, I can't contr- or -- yeah. As silly as it was, I felt like, "Oh, yeah. There's this new -- I'm the new person. I- I can't contribute to this discussion. There's -- I can't say anything. There's no vital information. So I'm just gonna keep my mouth shut and just- and just listen." And that was, oof, for a f- a few months. But with the consistency, I think [chuckles] other members, like, sees me, and they're like, "Hey, so what do you think, Yolanda?" Or, "Hey, Yolanda. Long --" you know, "Good to see you on here." And because of that, and then reaching out to me, and kind of putting me on the spot, kind of broke the ice. At least for me, it- it helped me get more comfortable. And then, finally, took the plunge of like, "Okay. I think I could help out with the note-taking." I think it was, like, Meg needed a help or something in one of the rooms. And I'm like, "[Breaths fast] Okay. I- I think I can do this [laughs]." [Dan chuckles]

Bekah: 41:29

Yeah. So I wanna back up a little bit, kind of? I don't know if it's backing up. But [laughs] you mentioned that you're a mom too. And we talked about this journey and ... is -- we all, you know, that it's challenging to be a parent [chuckles] and to be working, especially during COVID times and- and learning. So, I- I feel like, anytime we can hear the story of ... you know, how you survived [chuckles] being a parent and learning, or working through things, I think that that story looks a lot different than- than other people's stories who, you know, might not have all of the same responsibilities. So what do you think -- w-what -- how was that for you as a mom?

Yolanda: 42:16

Oof. It was tough. It is tough. It's still tough.

Bekah: 42:19

Mm-hmm.

Yolanda: 42:20

It's-

Bekah: 42:20

Yeah.

Yolanda: 42:21

-not easy. I ... I mean, I'm very fortunate that I do have my husband, you know? And he does help out. But it's- it's just ... [sighs] it- it was -- it is, it's difficult. It's a lot of trying to figure out when can I study, you know? I have — at that time — 2-year-old saying like, "Hey, play with me," you know? Like-

Bekah: 42:42

Mm-hmm.

Yolanda: 42:42

-"Let's play together." Because he sees me here, you know, on the computer, at home. So, it's, you know, play time [chuckles]. No matter how hard I try, it was like, "Okay, give- give me five minutes," or ... you know? But they don't- they don't understand time. You-

Bekah: 42:55

Yep.

Yolanda: 42:55

-you say five, they think it's, like, now [laughs]. So ... and then, you know, it's just trying to adjust the schedule. I remember trying to wake up, you know, five in the morning to try to learn how to code. And then, of course, my little one — three, at that time — he would wake up, and he wouldn't see me or he'll look for me. So, I couldn't really code. Cuz then, he wants to -- you know, I can't keep him up at 5 AM. He still needs to sleep. So-

Bekah: 43:23

Mm-hmm.

Yolanda: 43:24

-and I'll go back in bed and try to put him, you know, back to sleep. And then, when I try to, I think I -- I thought I ninja my way out, but oh, no. He wakes up like five minutes later [laughs]. I was like, "Okay, that didn't work." And then, I'll try to stay up late to learn how to code. And sometimes that doesn't work. Because he wants mommy to be in bed with him to, you know, go to sleep. I'll try to ask my husband, and he'll try to help out. But it's always like, "No, but I want mommy." And I'm like, "Mommy's busy." [Yolanda and Dan chuckle] So I will try that. And then, I'll do like, 11, 12 o'clock ... at night, 1 o'clock, trying to code. But then, I'm already tired.

Bekah: 44:01

Mm-hmm.

Yolanda: 44:01

So, was it effective? I don't know. It's -- it felt like -- it reminded me of college, where you look at the textbook and you're reading that same paragraph. And you're like, "Oh, crap. I think I just read that paragraph. Okay. I'm gonna focus. Let me read it again [laughs]." But nothing stick. And you're like, "Oh. Hmm. What did I just read?" So, it felt like that for- for many months. Just trying to find ways to- to do everything. And then I had a talk with my husband and saying, "Hey, is it okay if I cut back on work and focus on school, or, you know, Leon's class? Because the end goal is to make that career change." And, you know, luckily, his job wasn't affected by the- the COVID. So, he's still -- he was still working. So he said, "Yeah, yeah, we can do that." So ... and then, you know, I'll -- and also fortunately we are able to put my kid in daycares. So, you know, just part-time. So we did that. And that -- all those pieces kind of fell together and it helped me out, personally. So I was very fortunate and, you know, supportive husband didn't lose his job, had daycare, so this kind of stars semi-aligned. And I was able to kind of learn through that. But it wasn't easy. A lot of nights that I cried. A lot of nights that I- I mean ... argued. A lot of nights that I -- not even nights. Just days, I just wanna scream into the void, like, "Why?" And, you know, tho- thought process of like, "If I didn't have a kid, I probably would've gotten this earlier, better, faster," you know? And ... then, kind of look at him, and he smiles, and gives me a hug, I'm like, "Damn it. Why did I think of that?" You know [Bekah laughs], "They're terrible thoughts!" And it's like, "Okay, it's worth it." He's -- he doesn't know any better. So, it's --

Bekah: 45:42

Hashtag mom life.

Yolanda: 45:44

Yes. He's -- it's a lot of- of back and forth. Like, I wish- I wish I didn't change my mind by- back in college, but then, I wouldn't have taught abroad. Then I wouldn't have had built those friendship and relationships. And it's just ... I don't know. But being a mom is hard. And ... that's just ... that was my rant. Sorry [laughs].

Bekah: 46:06

No.

Dan: 46:06

No. Yeah, it's- it's hard. It's hard to- to ... I mean, it's definitely hard to learn, you know? It's hard to really do any development work when, you know, when you're tired or for me, I guess, personally. But, like, I feel like this is pretty common. But, you know, when your brain -- it's -- when you're tired, your brain doesn't work quite at its, like, its normal level. And ... parenting is being tired a lot. [Chuckles] And, you know, it's just like, it's hard. It's- it's hard. So, I -- we are appreciate you sharing with us. Cuz it's ... I've- I've had a lot of similar experiences. It's a lot of late nights, and a lot of yelling, and stuff not going through your brain that you think should be going through. Like ... I -- you know, I should be able to figure this out kind of thing, right? [Laughs] And then, I'm like, "Oh, wait. I was up for -- I was only asleep for like two hours last night [chuckles]. And then -- maybe that's why," you know? So, yes.

Bekah: 46:58

And I think, you know, it's hard. I've talked to a lot of moms who have felt those frustrations and you- you see stories on Twitter or wherever, where people are flying through things. And then, you play the comparison game, like, "Well, how come they're there, and I'm not there?" And you know, I- I can't tell you how many times I've talked to another mom who was struggling in that journey. Like, "Well, I'm staying up late, and I'm waking up early, and I'm putting in all this time, and it's still not sticking." I'm like, "How many hours of sleep are you getting a night? Four? Well, it's- it's not going to stick." And you know, you said something earlier about, like, "I- I wish I would have like savored the journey more," or something like that. And I- I think that there is this tendency to wanna rush through it, or, you know, "These bootcampers get it done in 12 weeks or whatever. I should be able to get it done in 12 weeks." But you know, that's- that's not ideal [chuckles]. And it- it doesn't acknowledge the challenges that- that we face in our lives ... to be able to do that. Like, Dan, you're saying like, your brain just cannot ... be a sponge when you're not getting enough sleep at night. It's- it's not -- it- it's a physiological thing [laughs]. You ca- you can't break that. You can't change that part of- of it. And so, you know, putting a focus on, like, take the time to, like, pace yourself and learn what you're doing, and savor those moments of the journey. I -- you -- I'll -- I say this, like, in retrospect. But I know, had somebody said the same thing to me while I was going through it, I'd be like, "Uh-huh, sure. Whatever." Like [laughs], "Well, I just need to be done with this and get on with the real life where things are easier," is- is not easier. Like, well, [laughs] I thought bootcamp was hard. Wait a minute. Like, this is- this is harder suddenly. And I'm terrified. So ... there are so many other factors. And -- alrite. Somebody had once said, you know, bootcamps should have ... I dunno. Like a- a warning or something to say that this is gonna put intense pressure on your relationship. And a lot of people break up during this time [chuckles]. Because there is so much stress and pressure. And nobody talks about that. Cuz it like, "Oh, did you finish? Did your project get done? Did you get hired?" Not like [chuckles], "How were you impacted in your life outside of work and learning?" And so, I think it's, you know, I very much appreciate you sharing all of that. Because I think that -- I wish that more people talked about it. So, people who are coming into tech, like, know there's a lot of pressure in these things.

Yolanda: 49:43

So much pressure. I -- pressure on ourselves, I think, you know? And I-

Bekah: 49:47

Yeah.

Yolanda: 49:47

-keep comparing myself to others — that comparison game that you said, you know? It's a terrible game to play. Terrible, terrible, you know?

Bekah: 49:53

I was comparing my ca- self to Kent C. Dodds. I'm like, this is [Bekah and Yolanda laugh] ... I don't know why. That's not really realistic, but I'm like, "Why am I not like that?" Like --

Yolanda: 50:01

Yeah, it's just -- cuz you see it, you know? Like, all -- you know, they- they did it. They get it. Why can't I? You know? Or I'll ... forget that I'm- I'm a- I'm a mom, you know? And-

Bekah: 50:11

Mm-hmm.

Yolanda: 50:12

-I have these obligations, because I was thinking, "Ah, in college, I didn't struggle this much, did I?"

Bekah: 50:18

Yeah.

Yolanda: 50:18

Like, "I got it." Like, "What- what's different from college and now?" I mean, I was -- like, college was like 15 years ago. I had to calculate it [Bekah chuckles]. It's just like [Dan chuckles] -- you know, and back then, it was just me. I was just -- like, there's no other- there's no other ... little ones or, you know, people that I have to kind of focus on to take care of. So, yeah. So, I -- somebody told me like, "Compare to yourself." And I was like, "Oh, that's not fun." Like, compare ... you know, like, it's just -- I- I should -- and it -- I get what they're saying. Cuz you -- I'm looking back a year ago. Where was I? You know? What is today? March? And I think, I was still learning JavaScript. And s- probably feeling frustrated the year ago saying-

Bekah: 50:54

Yeah.

Yolanda: 50:54

-"I don't get it. What- what do you mean I have to do this? Like, it doesn't make sense." And right now, it still doesn't make sense. But it's a little ... a little -- I get a better idea. So ... yeah. Somebody -- I- I try to do that. And he's like, "Okay, where was I before?" You know? "Where was I yesterday? Did I have a least 1% of improvement today, kinda thing?" So, I think that was, like, through also "Atomic Habits", you know? Just that microscopic improvement and- and focus on that. So, I think that helps me out as well. Just the tiniest of the tiny victory. So, if I could just put in, you know, five minutes of whatever learning, "Yay, I did it! That's my victory. One step, tiny step forward [chuckles]," instead of saying, "Oh, I only spent five minutes," you know? It's like, try to change that mindset. Which is so hard. But the pressure is hard. The comparison game is hard [chuckles]. Everything is hard. So hard.

Bekah: 51:45

Is it -- is -- you -- I feel like -- I was like, "Oh, there should be Calendly links to, like, meet with your mentor, slash meet with your therapist." Like, [chuckles] they should be right next to each other. Cuz I think it would be useful [chuckles]. Well, I wanna thank you, Yolanda, for being here and sharing your journey with us. Cuz I think this is super valuable and a lot of people are gonna learn from this episode. Are there any -- do you wanna share any of your biggest lessons or tips for those out there listening, before we head off for the day?

Yolanda: 52:24

Ah, biggest question. Um ... take your time. It takes time. Sorry. I should say, it takes time. Everything takes time. Try to have that ingrained in your head. It's just ... everything takes time. Networking takes time. Learning how to code takes time. Finding a job takes time [chuckles]. Then, you know, the- the main foundation is -- it- it just, it takes time. So, I wish I had that ingrained in me, instead of hurry, hurry, hurry, fear of missing out. It's just stop, breathe, and like, "Okay, it's gonna- it's gonna take time. And that is okay. That is definitely okay. I'm not gonna miss out on jobs. I'm not gonna miss out on opportunities. Because I'm just gonna focus on what I can do at this moment in time. And if that's all I can do, that's all I can do." So, just- just take it easy [chuckles].

Dan: 53:14

I love that. Yeah, I love that advice a lot [chuckles]. I think that- I think that's a great note to end on. And I wanna say, thank you to Yolanda, too. I- I really appreciate hearing about ... well, everything, really. It was- it was- it was good. I think what Bekah said is right. A lot of people are gonna find this really valuable. So, thank you again for coming on.

Bekah: 53:33

Bye.

Dan: 53:37

Thank you for listening to this episode of the Virtual Coffee Podcast. This episode was produced by Dan Ott and Bekah Hawrot Weigel. If you have questions or comments, you can hit us up on Twitter at VirtualCoffeeIO, or email us at podcast@virtualcoffee.io. You can find the show notes, sign up for the newsletter, check out any of our other resources on our website, virtualcoffee.io. If you're interested in sponsoring Virtual Coffee, you can find out more information on our website at virtualcoffee.io/sponsorship. Please subscribe to our podcast, and be sure to leave us a review. Thanks for listening, and we'll see you next week!

The Virtual Coffee Podcast is produced by Dan Ott and Bekah Hawrot Weigel and edited by Dan Ott.