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Matt McInnis - Go Make Stuff!

Season 5, Episode 8 | May 25, 2022

In today's episode, Dan and Bekah talk to Matt McInnis about his incredible journey through tech from math professor, to self-taught data-scientist working with IBM and Microsoft, to founder.


Matt McInnis

Matt is a full-stack developer (Rails+React) at Typist based in Toronto, Canada. Former artificial intelligence lead at IBM and Microsoft, mathematics professor at Centennial College and Saskatchewan Polytechnic. Matt really loves brunch.

Show Notes:

This week Bekah and Dan sat down with Matt McInnis a former Math Professor, and current data scientist, full-stack engineer, and founder, about his journey through tech as a self-taught engineer. He shares his insight into building personal projects and creating value in the projects you work on, even if those projects are just for you.

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Transcript:

Bekah:

Hello, and welcome to season five, episode eight of the Virtual Coffee podcast. I'm Bekah. And this is a podcast that features members of the Virtual Coffee community. Virtual Coffee is an intimate group of developers at all stages of their coding journey. And they're here on this podcast, sharing their stories and what they've learned. And we're here to share it with you here with me. Today is my co-host Dan.

Dan:

Hello. Today, we had a really, a really fun episode. We sat down with Matt McInnis. Um, he is a, I dunno, a data scientist, a full-stack engineer, a founder, um, used to be a math professor. Uh, he, he had a real, he has had a very interesting journey and a very interesting career. So it was very cool to hear his. Can I just say very, a couple more times? Uh, I'm excited though. It was, it was, it was a fun time to sit down with Matt. Um, I don't know he's had a cool career and, uh, somebody at different things he's gotten gotten into, um, and he's built a lot of different things and it was fun. It was a fun conversation.

Bekah:

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, his journey is super interesting going from math professor to working at some really big tech places and talking about how he got those jobs by building things that were useful to him, I felt like was super inspiring to anybody. Who's trying to break into tech, but just to see how he's developed his career and followed his interest is really, uh, I don't know, inspiring, I guess.

Dan:

Yeah, absolutely. And it hit home for me a lot. Uh it's it's one of those things that I, I never did consciously, and I don't think Matt did really either. He, he was, he would build things that would help him, you know, help himself. So he talked about, uh, what he built something that was like helping to buy tickets or sell tickets and, um, It wasn't like a scheme to make money or a scheme to get a job. You know, it was just a thing that helped him, his, his own like life, you know, it wasn't trying to sell the product or, um, do any of the things that you hear about these days a lot? Um, he just was like interested in built something and then some people heard about it. Um, and well, you'll hear about the rest, but, uh, it was cool. It hit home for me. I, I that's building projects is like, that's always, my advice to people too, is, is just build things that you're either interested in or could help yourself. Um, and the rest will come sort of naturally. So it was, it was cool. It was, we had a good time talking to him.

Bekah:

Yeah, it was fascinating episode. Um, and we hope that you enjoy it and we're going to start it the same way that we start every Virtual Coffee with our names where we're from, what we do and our random check-in question. So enjoy. Today's random check-in question is if you could appear on any game show, what would it be? I'm Bekah. I am a technical community builder from a small town in Ohio and show. I don't know if there was a Sudoku game show. I would like to try that. I don't think that's a thing. So I guess I'll go on wheel of fortune. Or I don't know prices. Right. I feel like I'm, as an adult, I've gotten better at that. Like, oh, I know the price of that. Um, but I dunno, I think I'll stick with wheel of fortune.

Dan:

of Fortune it seemed like a fun, a fun time. You know, I

Bekah:

so stressful.

Dan:

I feel like a Sudoku game show be boring to watch. It might be fun to compete. fun to compete in, but, uh,

Bekah:

There's like some kind of obstacles they throw in, right? Like once you in one row, then something happened and you get slimed. Do you ever watch double dare?

Dan:

Oh, man. Um, okay, so hi, I'm Dan. I do a front end development, mostly and, Cleveland and. Um, uh, yeah, yeah, it game show, uh, American Gladiators is the first thing that popped into my head. Uh,

Bekah:

it back. That's what I'm doing.

Dan:

I, uh, always wanted to do, especially the one, the like thing. I feel like they ended with it, but the one where you run around shooting the, like the Nerf guns at the, you know, and the, like the gladiator person is up on the top shooting, Nerf gun stuff at you or tennis balls. I don't really know. I haven't watched it obviously in a long time, but.

Bekah:

ninja warrior two. I forgot.

Dan:

American ninja warrior is cool. a lot harder though, but it would be to try. I would definitely try that for sure.

Matt:

a contestant or one of on

Dan:

when we now have to start, I'd have to start as a contestant, you know, I can't, I'm not going to just like swoop in and, you know, I gotta, I gotta earn my, earn my way up. Right. Uh, but yeah, I feel like, uh, plus it, get the will, did the contestants have the, um, you call them? Like a, not a jumpsuit, but the, uh, we things. Or like that wrestlers. So,

Matt:

I think it's the jumps. Now there's a name for it. Isn't that?

Dan:

Was the thing that need, Nick was the thing that like wrestlers were, uh, like, like you single it, maybe. I don't know.

Matt:

another word for it, but it's not leotards, is it? No.

Dan:

mean, it's basically leotard, but it's like sleeve list.

Bekah:

it is what you were wrestling.

Dan:

don't know. I don't know doesn't sound right, but you're probably right. We'll ask Nick after, after the F.

Matt:

I'm a, it's good to be here, guys. Thank you for having me. I'm Matt. I'm a developer from Toronto, Canada. I run a small company called Typist where we make educational software and um, if I was on one game, so my first, you know, American Gladiator wins, but my first reaction was Kid's Street. It's this old game show. I don't know if I like, if I was 12 years old again, think it, you know, and everyone kind of clapped over their head. Like there is this like thing that they did if they got a question, right. And if you want. It was like every kid's to go into like this middle platform was like stalked, like a toy store. And you had like two minutes to just grab whatever you wanted. It was like, yeah. So my sisters and I, we would watch kids stream and be like, how do we get on this TV show? And we never quite cracked the egg on that one. It was very disappointing childhood, I guess you could say I'm kidding, but it's a kid's dream, but you know, also the second dance answer, cause that sounds.

Bekah:

wow. I have never seen kids street before.

Matt:

Yeah, there's this funny kind of Canadian, you know, from Canada, there's this funny Canadian subculture around some things like there are these really kind of weird things that pop up every now and then that are extremely popular. Like household, everybody knows them, even like music and bands sometimes, um, there were fueled by this entertainment industry that like out of Toronto, but like these companies called much music and they're related subsidiaries, but are just totally unknown in the U S and it, which is funny because the us is a two hour drive from where I'm living. Close, right? Like we're we're right there. We go to Buffalo bills games all the time. It's across the, you know, it feels like it's across the street, but go down there and you're like, oh, they tragically hit. And it like, every, like, you know, half of Canada is all time favorite band and people in the U S are like, who? Like, who is that? You know, it's, there's these things. So kids dream might be one of them too. And, uh, you know, all these like kind of old TV shows for kids.

Bekah:

Yeah, I need check it out. I pulled up the, oh, it is a Canadian's children's game show. So

Matt:

I, ah, you guys missed out, this was epic, like, and it would have been like, it would've been way better if the us had done it, the mall would have been cooler. Like production quality would have been way up there. Like where's Nickelodeon

Bekah:

yeah.

Matt:

for kids street.

Bekah:

I love it. It looks very eighties. I need to check this out.

Matt:

Yeah, it was cool.

Bekah:

Well, thanks so much for being here with us today, Matt, we always like to get started with your origin stories. So if you could give us what the story is that brought you here to today, where you are in tech.

Matt:

Yeah. Thanks. Thank you for having me, Dan and Bekah. Um, yeah. I guess like starting, focusing on the tech side of things, I, you know, graduated, uh, I did degrees in math. I love math. Uh, I think it's still my Twitter. Uh, and, uh, and you know, I went, I decided that like the change I wanted to make in the world after graduating was I wanted to improve the way that people learn mathematics at the post-secondary level. I just, you know, my programs that I took were massacre. Such few people finish relative to how many started. And, uh, and I worked all the way through university and math help centers. And as a TA and I saw people in non-math disciplines kind of drop out of their like early childhood education program because they couldn't complete their stats course. And I thought that. Crazy because if it's taught properly, I don't think math is hard. Uh, you know, put that strong caveat if it's taught properly. And so I really wanted to kind of affect change there. I took a job. Uh, I applied everywhere for these, uh, in Canada. We call them math professorships at community colleges in Canada and the U S it's probably known as a math instructor, uh, at the community in the community college system. And. So I took a job, uh, in Saskatchewan. I moved from the small town Aurora, Ontario, where I grew up to, uh, prince Albert, Saskatchewan, which is 40,000 person town, like in the, you know, it was really awesome. I loved it out there and I had some family there too. And that's where, you know, I guess my journey to tech started, I, um, you know, I was a math person. I really had no experience with tech at that point. I was, you know, 24 and 23, 24. And, um, and I, I just started wanting to make things. Um, I remember the first thing I wanted to make was I had read a book that's now very popular Malcolm Gladwell's tipping point. And he described like Sesame street in the eighties and how they would like. Engineer this TV show, they would bring kids in and they would put Sesame street on one screen. And this thing called the distractor on the other screen. And, uh, every seven seconds, this distractor would display these still images that would switch. So every seven seconds, a different image. And you'd put like 20 kids in the room and the researchers would just look at their eyes and be like, are they looking at the distractor? Are they looking at Sesame street? And then they would go back and they'd graph it after they'd done, like a couple of cycles of kids. And they'd see what are the parts of the TV show that kids were disengaged with, that we need to re. And that was like the first thing I was like, man, if they could do that in the eighties, why can't like in, you know, this was, I guess like 2010. I'm like, why can't we do that? Like in real time live while I'm teaching in class. And that was my first project was I wanted to build something that did that. And I had learned that Hasbro had put out this toy called the high, like the star wars force trainer. Very predictable story. We'd have like a headset that you'd put on and it turns out this thing could actually take a, like a low level EEG reading of brain activity. If your brain was active or not. And then like the toy would connect wirelessly to this base unit that had a fan that would spin a ball up and down in this toy. And so it like, hence the fourth strainer is you concentrate really hard and you can use the force to move this ball, like really cool toy. Right. And I said, well, if I could just get the electrical signal out of that and into my computer and graph it, that would be the whole thing. And that was my first foray into tech. was I like started. It was like, okay, well, how do I get the electrical signal out? And how does, how does electricity work and how does circuits work? And, uh, you know, I learned about microprocessors and the Arduino had to like just come out at the time. And so I started like getting these, like I found that kids' books for Arduino actually way better than the ones that are making for adults. So I like got all these like kids' books and started like doing these experiments. And then I. You know, these wires solder. So I'd go down to the electrical department and be like, Hey guy, I was teaching math for electricians as part of my job. They're like, Hey, can you do some soldering for me? And like put these. And you know, at this point I would like kind of become this like project. And I got to working, uh, after, you know, on the code side, I learned that there's this language called processing, which was Java based that could do the graphing pretty easily for me. If I could just pull the signal in and I got that working. You know, like six months later presented it at a conference down in Saskatoon, one of the cities in Saskatchewan. And at that point, yeah. And, um, you know, from there, I just, I really wanted to continue making things that would make me a better teacher. And that drove me for a long time. And then, you know, a couple of years after that, I started doing reflection of what do I want in terms of a career and a lifestyle and like, what are the things I'm after? And that really kind of led me to getting interested in. Your code as a career. Um, and, uh, there weren't really, you know, bootcamps and they were, I don't even think I'd been really created at that point or launched or, you know, the whole suite of the FedEx, even me Coursera awesome websites for these things. Right. Um, so it was a lot of learning. It was, I, you know, I did that all while I had a full-time job and, you know, fast forward a number of years I launched Typist, the company are now run and then my little small passion project, I sometimes call it at the same time. Uh, I exploded. Um, and this was maybe six or six ish, six, seven years ago. Now at AI, if nothing else is a combination of computer science and like really strong math background, um, and you know, back then more emphasis on the math, but today maybe more emphasis on the computer science side and. Uh, IBM came knocking and said, Hey, we are trying to hire AI expertise. And, um, uh, and at that point I had some projects that like, I was experimenting a lot in AI. And so they brought me into, they offered me like dream job to go in and be on this new open source team that they're putting across Canada. And I'd get to work with all these huge companies and help them do AI better and solve these problems. And that sounded like a blast. Uh, so I did that for a number of years. And then later I moved over to Microsoft to do a similar type work, like more, more hands. I wanted to get deeper into projects. And Microsoft gave me that opportunity to go deeper into science projects with, uh, you know, um, companies and all for free. Like these companies would just parachute in would just, Microsoft would just parachute me in and it's like, Yeah. we we're going to help you do data science better because if you do it on our cloud, we're going to make a lot of. So I'd get to go and just like pick my projects and go onsite. I get like a badge. It was awesome. And, you know, and build out these data science projects and all the while on my evenings and weekends building our Typist, trying to get it to the place where it could support, you know, a basic income for me and I could work on it full-time which eventually happened. And, um, and you know, that sort of switch over process. Scary and, you know, different than I had imagined it would be. But eventually my boss at Microsoft was like, man, you gotta go do this. It's there, like go do this thing. And, and, uh, and I did. And, uh, and that's what I've been working on for the last three or four years.

Bekah:

that's. That's I. I have to ask about that switch. Cause I feel like that sounds like very scary. I'm giving up all of the stuff that you've been doing with a team, with all of these resources and then jumping into this entrepreneur journey. I know that you said that you had some encouragement, but like what really pushed you to go all in on Typist?

Matt:

Ah, you know, it was, it, it was really, really hard. Um, you know, I. I guess like one of the big factors was I thought that, um, we, we had a project lined up for Typist? and Typist. Maybe this is the appropriate time to kind of speak to what it is. Um, we make software for community college students who are taking a certain set of courses. So our first product was for community college students who are taking keyboard. Uh, and those are people studying programs to be law clerks or legal assistance, medical assistance, or even executive assistants, and very, you know, there's interesting demographics in those programs, which is a reason I'm really passionate to work on, uh, and honored to build software for that group. Uh, and then we have this second product, which at that point back I was, uh, was really, we had discussed. And it was in this thing called document production. So, you know, people that go in these fields need to be able to make a professionally formatted business letter that has these exact traits and the it's sort of a vocational skill. And in that particular field, it's rated as like a top three employment skill to, um, by all every industry survey that's ever been done. Uh, and it's really, really hard to teach and. We had one of the colleagues I've been kind of kicking the tires with the people who are using our keyboarding soft. It'd be like, Hey, does anyone want a build this with us? And by partner, just like give us feedback, tell us, tell us what to build like whiteboard. And ideally if we build something that you really liked. You know, the person to use it and give us the reference so that we can maybe expand this. And I, and that was a big part of the decision was I had all that lined up. And so for the six to seven months prior to that, um, and this was the final push I had outsourced the development of it to a really great developer, um, who like grades, you know, really, really talented rails developer. Um, and, uh, we had a prototype. And we went back to this college and presented this and our take vacation days, anytime I had to go take meetings. Right. So all of my vacation for those four years was consumed by Typist. And, uh, so I'd take a vacation day. I'd go and we'd present this back to the group. And they had said, yes, if you can build it and it can do these things, but we need these changes, you know, we'll use it. Um, but at that point I looked with like how we had constructed the software and I said, it's not going to get us to the finish line. You know, specifically we'd built it in rails and like, it all works with file IO, so they need to upload this file and then we would go compare it to this other file. And they're both word documents, which are incredibly hard to work with. And we like, you know, w all the existing previous software, like, if there's a typo in a paragraph, you lost all the marks of the paragraph, because doing fuzzy matching is like really, really hard. Um, we just, I sat there and I'm like, we can't do this in our web server. It takes like 20 seconds to process a single file. be in classes. They'll do a test. 30 uploads at once. We'll never be able to handle the spike in traffic when there would be able to, don't want a web service sitting idle for it. And I just lost her short knew. We had to rebuild the software completely from scratch and we had five months to do it. We had gone in and already produced, like we had already done the demo and be like, Yeah. it's working look. And I knew that we had to throw away everything that we'd done and build it from scratch, um, which we did. Uh, so that was like the, there was an immediacy which helped. Make that decision of like, I like, so when I went in and had that conversation with my wonderful, wonderful boss, uh, I was gay and I was explaining this all to her. Um, she's like, I'm like going, asking, like, if we're going to launch this thing and this could push Typist over the mark of like, it could support a couple employees, um, I've got to go now. Like I can't wait till next week. I've got to start right now. Um, and she's like, yep. Do it. And at that point, I like almost on the spot I gave my notice. I talked to my wife and, and that was the jump and it was a hard summer, by the way.

Dan:

Yeah. I mean, that's pretty intense. I mean, obviously I did. Um, but it seems like it worked out right. I mean kind of betting on yourself and I mean, maybe it wasn't much of a bet of you. Did you have a good idea of, said you had to tear it down and rebuild it. Did you have a good idea at that moment of like what it was going to look like when you finished rebuilding it or were you just like, we have like our start from scratch and I have no idea, you know,

Matt:

Yeah. we, we knew that I did. And maybe, you know, I, and I'm happy to speak to the, kind of the details of it, because I think they're interesting if that's, you know, um, so like we, you know, I mentioned we couldn't do this. Uh, because like, you know, the really simple use case was that if 20 students are doing a test and they all upload their documents at once and they take 25 seconds to process web servers just can't do that. We would have to have like this incredible scale that would just be so expensive. We couldn't run the business. And, um, so. The, my, my theory was that we needed a couple of things we needed to be using groupie because like a node based system made a lot more sense than the way that a node event loop works, you know? And, uh, and the second thing was we needed a way to deploy these sort of algorithms that we were building in a way that can handle these spikes in traffic. And at that point, uh, Sort of this Lambda architecture, which is, you know, all the clouds have a product for this. So in Microsoft is called Azure functions and AWS is called, uh, Lambda in net. Netlify just launched when I think actually, and CloudFlare has one called CloudFlare functions too, but they basically work that like something happens and they spin up your and they do the thing you want it to do. And then they spend down and you can throw a thousand at them. And they, you know, a thousand instances will spit up. You'll pay for the time they're up and then they'll turn off. And so that was kind of what was that we had to rewrite this into that this Lambda type architecture that could handle these spikes. We had to use, we had to switch languages. So we had to use a language that was compatible there in while supported and Ruby wasn't supported at all. So had to go to JavaScript. And then there was, you know, to your question, Dan, there, there were questions. I was really, really concerned about, which were, how are we going to go in and like that problem on evaluation. So if you're a student, you upload this document and you're off by like two characters, we couldn't take off all of the marks, right? So we had to be able to go in and compare the texts. We expected students to type in the text that they did type and take off some type of marks of as proportional as do that and give meaningful feedback on the other side. And at that point I had no idea how we're going to solve that problem. Yeah. which we later figured out a way to, and even just converting, like how do we even, you know, just as a quick comment, doc, X-Files are really hard to work with, but here's like a fun thing you can do. If you're on a windows machine, take a doc X vitality, desktop, rename it to.zip, and then extract. And you'll see the general, how these files are structured inside. There is all this kind of markup that will be a little bit familiar to you if you've seen XML or HTML before. Um, and you can see all the stuff in there. So we knew that we had to like deal with that problem too, which we didn't know how we were going to handle, because we were using these Ruby libraries that kind of abstracted that away for us.

Bekah:

Yeah. So you made this career journey, I guess. So from math and then you were doing AI data science stuff, and then rails backend stuff and, and now JavaScript and react, right.

Matt:

Yeah. And, you know, I think the first part of that would be like, it's worth expanding on like, it was, um, like when I started learning code it, like, I, you know, data science is generally on, in Python. Like, those are the language for data science and heavy emphasis on Python these days, like academics. These are, but nobody else really does. Um, and so the, like, I really didn't know a ton of Python, but it's such an approachable language. I really, that like that seven years of learning code, like, you know, I breezed past it in a sentence, but that was really hard. It was a lot of evenings and weekends. I was working full time that whole time, uh, some points had like even taking on contract gigs, doing statistical consulting for some stuff. And, um, and web dev that I, was learning during that time. Uh, beca it was, uh, you know, I, had started, uh, The with, uh, like, you know, I started with HTML and CSS and had like, learned that and it built a personal website. And he was like, know, these projects all the way through, like I wanted, um, like at time people were downloading TV shows and movies and stuff, maybe, you know, they shouldn't. I, but it was like really hard. So like I wanted to go, if I download the of the office, I wanted to search the office and have it organized, like episode one, episode two episode three, rid of the ones were like somebody holding their camera and do. So does a website to do that. And it was like so basic, it was a single PHP file that just went and like kind of scraped the pirate bay and then analyze the file names. Uh, and then I had no idea how to use databases, so it would just stick the results into like a text file. I'm like go daddy. So it was like, that's where I was starting from. And it was, um, so there's like, there's that there were, um, uh, like, oh my God, there's so many other, like another one that was fine was when I was teaching at the college. Um, you'd put all your marks into like, So I was like, okay, well I want to give my students more contextual feedback on how they're doing in the course. So I put it into a Google doc and I was like, how do I get this thing to send email? And then that was like, one of the first things I had written in JavaScript was to like, go take all my students. And if they're like, if they've not done well on the first two quizzes, send them an email. That's like, Hey, you know, John. I saw you didn't do very well in the first few quizzes. Here are my office hours. There's also the math help center. If you need support, I'm here for you. Like, you know, like really want to help you turn this around. And if they were doing really well, they'd get like a more positive note with different content. And I had like six different templates and they're just hit go. And everybody would get an email from me and like my five sections or whatever.

Bekah:

I, I need that 10 years ago. I wouldn't save me so much time. Wow. That's amazing.

Matt:

But like the fight I felt guilty about back, I was I'd get these responses and be like, wow, thank you for taking the time to write me this. Like

Bekah:

Wait, is that not a product for teachers? Because if it's not totally should be.

Dan:

I was just

Matt:

yeah.

Dan:

a CRM, right. A CRM, except for students is like, you have all the automated, automated mail campaigns and stuff, you know, except yours, except you're emailing. That's amazing.

Bekah:

I need to Google this

Dan:

It has to exist.

Bekah:

if, if it is a thing I need to tell everybody that I know that's still a teacher about it. Um, and if not, then my new project.

Matt:

Yeah. It's you know, so that was like, there were these projects on the way. Right. And they were all usually connected to something I wanted to see in the world. Like, and another really big one I took on that was like less code, but it was, you know, it was my first experience with rails was, um, you know, we had, I was teaching at the college. Um, helping to volunteer a coach, this marketing team, which I don't know what I was doing there. I was like the math guy. Right. Um, and, uh, but I wanted to get my students more experience with the actual, like the part of marketing that really is interesting to me is the analytics of it. There's really rich analytics and the math is just super fun to look at, but there is like a Google analytics was out there at the time. It was really hard to get experience with actual data. So I thought, well, what if we could get like a website up that would, um, you know, have a bunch of data that students could just mess around with? And we could like do stuff. We could go put posters up and drive traffic. And, and then like, I was also really interested in, still am in volunteerism. And I said, you know, I've had these great, wonderful, like life-changing experience volunteering. Like, you know, what, if we could drive more volunteers to charities. Um, and you know, I was also really attracted to short video format. So. I sorta took the summer off and I emailed the sort of CEOs of charities in Toronto and said, Hey, I went on Facebook and Craigslist trying to find a videographer who involved here with me. And I did. And we went, my pitch was like, Hey, we're going to take your CEO. We're going to go onsite where volunteerism is happening. We're going to shoot like a 45 second to one minute video of you telling volunteers why it would be so great to volunteer with your dog now. And we did that. And we did like five of the biggest charities in Toronto. And we put them on a website that I call them where the good is. And then we took the marketing stance. We promoted it around the college and then like we'd Google in with assaults that they would like drive the traffic to the website and we got to analyze it all. And it was really fun. And that was like my first website in rails. So it was a static webpage with just a bunch of videos, but it was a learn and, and, um, and there's probably like a million other projects that are similar. those that's what I was living seven years was I was really getting into web development. I loved it. I loved making things and the more relevant they were for me, the better. And, um, you know, my last one, which was like a full rails app, that was just a static page. Right. Was this, I wanted a Chrome extension. So my wife, my, who was my girlfriend at the time, we could just hit a button in Chrome and we could share the webpage that we're looking at with like a little note. And it would just like jumped to the other person's browser. Yeah. Built a little app that did that. And that was like the first, know, full, like real meaningful, like web app, you know, like the did stuff backend and used a database. And, and you know, during that time also, of course it started coming out. So I took wonderful database course from Stanford and then the university of Washington has amazing courses. And, um, and that allowed me to kind of get to the bottom of how these things worked, which I was incredibly curious about. Um, Like the hardware, software interface course from the university of Washington is just straight up one of the best courses I've ever taken. Like it's like how it, like, it tacos the problem of like, how does the code you type in Python change things in a computer and how does the computer work at all? And that was like the missing gap that I needed to kind of address. And that was a wonderful experience. And, Uh, and yeah, that's what like that seven years was like. And, and then towards the end of it, the project that I made that kind of got the attention of IBM, Was I had like had this, am I rambling here? I feel like I'm talking about

Bekah:

this is great.

Matt:

the, uh, I had a big baseball fan. I've got my little blue Jays hat in the background on the you're here behind me. And, um, and we love going to the home opener, which is the first game. And I had, uh, gone and we buy tickets, but they're always selling out. So you have to buy resale and resales, like three times the price. And we paid that one year, we paid like $110, which was outrageous at the time to sit in like $20 seats at like the top of the sitcom. And I was so upset by this, you know, it was really, and then, you know, one of my friends can come. So I had to, like, I tried to scalp the. So I was like outside the stadium instead of like, and like, how do you know a couple of bottles of juice to give myself the courage to do it? And I'm so I was standing outside the stadium with my best governor. We're to see like tickets. And I remember like, oh, there's 50,000 people there. Of course, like a friend walks by and he's like, what in the hell are you doing? And what in the heck are you doing? And then I'll never forget this mom and her daughter, the daughter must've been like 17, 18 years. And there they're walking by and I'm out there just tickets and need a ticket. she's so politely says, you, everyone no, thank you. she looks at me and it looks down at my shirt and I've got my university Western shirt on and she doesn't like to her face just drops. And she looks at her daughter. Who's like also got Western, for sure. It just has this like sad look of horror as they walk into this. Like, this is what my daughter is going to be. Uh, but anyways, that whole experience has really upsetting. And, um, so I'm like, well, you know, I learned that if you bought season tickets for like all 90 games in a season, then you would get like a 15% discount and then I could get the $20 ticket. so of course, you know, what's a reasonable thing to do is spend $9,000 on season tickets. Yeah. So I basically took two thirds of my savings in my bank account. Yeah. Fronted the money on season tickets. But my theory was could sell them at face value to my friends. And since I got this like 15% discount, that would more than make up for the gap. And, uh, and Pam and I could go to like three or four games for free, which is all I really wanted. And, uh, but to do that, I needed to figure out how to price all these tickets. And so I wrote. Electron desktop app that went and scraped all the data from blue days.com and scraped all the data from StubHub. And I wrote an algorithm to like, you know, if you scrape StubHub one day and you scraped the next day, you can figure out what tickets are not there anymore. And then you can figure out what's sold and for what price, since you knew all the things. And so I built a really nice clean data set, and then I trained an algorithm to price my tickets. And, uh, you know, again, I have this electronic app and I just click on. It would price on my tickets, send an email to my friends and, and then people just earmarked what tickets I want. And, uh, and it worked. And I did that for, you know, I've been doing that four, years now, or six years, I guess. Uh, this is, there's like two year gap that I, you know, does that not to do it because of COVID. Um, and, uh, and then that got the attention of IB. I don't mean like, Hey, that's a really awesome project. And that's what kind of opened that door. Um, But

Bekah:

that's when I, when I was leaving education to come into tech, I made money. I remember the most money I made. bought and resold Justin Bieber tickets on stuff. And it was a lot of research. Again, that would have been something that would have been very useful to me during that time.

Matt:

oh yeah.

Bekah:

amazing. Justin Bieber also made me a lot of money, so I don't hate Justin Bieber. He's great.

Matt:

He's Canadian. Yeah. He's from down the road there

Bekah:

That's right.

Matt:

and we have a lot of mixed feelings, so it doesn't matter whether they're generally positive. Good. Well, that's good.

Bekah:

Yeah. Wow. I don't know what to say other than that's amazing. And what I did want to say was, um, for, we have a lot of people who are listening to the podcast who are coming into tech, and really love all these stories that you're telling, because all of the things that you made were useful to you and they made sense for you to make. And so there's always that question of like, well, what am supposed to be doing? And what am I supposed to be building? And don't have to, um, Build an electronic app that analyzes what to price your blue days tickets, but find that thing that's meaningful and then go for that and see where that takes you and who notices you based on that.

Matt:

Totally. And, you know, I have a friend I've, I've had these experiences where, um, I, you know, while I was at the college back in Dan, I, you know, I connected with this group called hacker paradise that facilitates these sort of work experiences. And they w you know, it out that was really impactful for me. And there's a, a woman I met there. Uh, who's amazing. I, her name is Nicole Keller and she has had this really, really cool career path. But one of the things she was doing down in New York was running coding classes for kids. And the thing that I I've got to visit Pam and I had gone to New York and called up Nicole and been like, Hey, and she's like, oh yeah, I'm working on doing this coding class because I'm like, can we come see that sounds awesome. And we and it was like the attic of this church. Like, you know, in, in like mainland, and we, um, so I'm just going to say mainland New York, York island, it wasn't, what are you guys call it? Manhattan. That's it? Yeah. Manhattan. And, uh, we, um, and it was, but like the thing I loved back out was that they started the kids who were like, they were just building static sites. He was like a website builder. They were like as young as like eight, nine years old, but they started them with, uh, they had gone to the UN. Uh, and I forget what it's called, but like, basically these are like our principles and they had asked the kids, like, what's one thing that you'd want to affect change with, and let's build a website to do that. Like they, they started, they didn't start with teaching JavaScript or teaching HTML and CSS. They started with like, what's the change you want to see in the world? And how can we use these amazing tools to do this? And I think that for people who are. Getting into tech, uh, you know, it's there and a lot of people that are coming in for many reasons and attack. And especially now it's like, I think people are realizing that you can have this great lifestyle with it, which is wonderful. And that's a great reason to come into tech there's these other things that are connected to it. I think one thing I'd love to introduce to that sort of thought processes, that is a tremendously powerful thing. Make computers do stuff automatically and that's awesome. And it can really affect positive change on the road. And so, you know, as you're figuring out what your learning projects think about what, like what you to change about the world. Like, you know, can you make something for your F your friend group? Can you make something for yourself? Can you automate something that you're doing Can you make something that would be just really funny or cool, you know, like what do you want to make? And, um, and I think if you start with that, like that can be really powerful because, you know, if you're selling. one of the biggest challenges you're going to face. And one of the biggest challenges I faced is how do you do it regularly? There would be weeks. I couldn't myself to have the energy to code at like nine o'clock at night. Right. and to continue that learning learning is so hard and it's such an emotionally challenging journey too. Um, but if you're connected to something that you just want to see out there, that that's a deeper level of motivation than, you know, of the other ones that can be out there. I think that's powerful.

Dan:

Yeah, I love that a lot, you know, and this is we actually, we just released Roger's episode. Uh, we talked to him a couple of weeks ago and. And he said a lot of the same things that he has sort of a, I mean, not the exact path, but like self-taught, um, and, and solving his own problems, sort of thing to learn, uh, coding. And so I was, uh, on the same boat too. I think my first website, well, that wasn't like a geo city site was like my site for my band. Right. And it was like in flash or whatever. Um, just, uh, yeah, I mean, it's fine, but, uh, the, um, We nowadays there's so many learning opportunities or the boot camps and everything like that. And there's so much, so many different choices to make so many different paths you can take. And I, it, when came up it's, there was nothing, you know, nothing like that at all. Uh, was some books that were out of date as soon as they hit the shelves and, you know, and then the internet, right. And and things like that. But, um, I found success the same, the same way it was, uh, doing things that. We're either fun or like, I want it to fix. Right. you're telling a story, uh, w when you were talking about the, um, automated spreadsheet, the thing that, you know, was thinking in my head, this it's like a curse and a blessing of people who learn program. Like, once you start down the path, like once you've figured out some stuff that you start seeing this everywhere, like, oh my God, that I could make this easier. Right. it's like, it's. When you do it, it's like a blessing, right. But it's obviously I have this for me anyway. this isn't for everybody, but it's like, thinking about it all the time for everything. sometimes it gets out of hand. Sometimes I'm automating things that don't actually take me that long. Probably it probably the work is taking longer than it did, but, uh, you know, it's, it's, uh, I don't know. It's such a, once you get into that habit of thinking that way and like, uh, making things it's, it can be, said, it can prove you can improve little things or, uh, little things, you know, like small things with your family or your friends, or, you know, large changes to it. It's it's, it's cool. There's so many apps, so many possibilities out there.

Matt:

I mean, are there, uh, are there any other projects that you've done are particularly redundant or maybe like not the effective use of time or

Dan:

well, I see how many color lights can see by me.

Matt:

quite a few actually.

Dan:

Yeah. Every time we start, like there was a two months or something where, so these are all like Hue light bulbs and there's, there's ones you can't see too. And I've spent so much time. I hated the lights in here I had before these, I just had like lights, like lamps everywhere never could get the lighting. Right. And then I got these, know, so I have now I got these huge, I'm like, this is the perfect solution hue bulbs. Cause he can connect, you know, you can connect to them with your phone or your, you know, uh, there's probably a web. Um, Mac app and all that stuff. Uh, and so I replaced all balls with these things. And now, now there's too many off, like now it's like, there's too much to do. I can, I have too many options, too many colors, too many like ways I can turn them up and down. And also, I, I kind of exactly how I wanted it, but then it was. Okay. Well, it's still a pain for me to like hope in my phone and like the button, you know, like try to get these like timing automations. I finally bought, oh, you can't see it. But I bought, uh, so who has this, like a button that it is just like a little, like a little click button and you can put it on the wall or you can put it wherever and you can set that to do whatever you want when you click it different ways. So I have that on my wall now. uh, I, uh, yeah, I, I spent like five days of. Being happy. I'm like, huh? This is, this is it. I have it. And like, just this morning I sat down. I'm like, I should change the colors of these, like now, like, so as a, sometimes struggle with being satisfied with things. But, uh, I still, it is. It's also fun though, you know?

Matt:

The, uh, in fact, uh, you like you have a Coffee, I think it would be totally fair to call that like an, a, like an amazing project that both of you have created. It's the community I love and love being part of. And so, like, does that, is it sort of the same sort of thing that has happened with you, Bekah, where you've had these things that you've taken on made and resulted in these learning experiences? And I'd imagine Virtual Coffee has been an amazing learning experience

Bekah:

Oh, for sure. It's been a learning experience and it's been great. I feel like I'm always dropping things. We have, um, the maintainers channel. And so you, there, there will be times where I just like drop a bunch of different ideas. Like these are all things that I think we should be doing. And a lot of times, like I'm writing out all of the processes or. Means or what support we need. And then obviously we don't do all of those because there's only 24 hours in the day. It's just not possible. But, and that was like, I got four hours of sleep last night it was because last night before bed. That was having this idea about a tech summit that I wanted to be doing. And like messaging Kirk and Nick Taylor about that, like, Hey, is this a, is this a idea that's too out there? Or is this something that maybe is useful or good or worth talking about? And then. I fell asleep and then it was like three in the morning I woke up and my brain was like, all right. Yeah. Let's, let's figure this out right now. No. Um, but I feel like, you know, it's a lot of that, but learning has been really great. And now I feel like I'm going down this, I don't like notion I have not liked it anytime I've used it, but like my methods. Storing all of these ideas and writing about them is just satisfactory now. And so I've started going down the notion rabbit hole of like, this is, this is what I need to do. And I need to automate these things to my notion, because I know that I can. So feel like you could probably automate like your lights look like through notion, right? If you just select what mood you're in and then it will automatically set your. So Dan, you should try that.

Dan:

last time I messed with notion. I had like a nervous breakdown trying to get everything exactly like.

Bekah:

is making me a template. So.

Dan:

that's, that's the issue I have with notion is, is, uh, it's a great product and it's a very, very cool initiative. There's just too many possibilities and it's too pop it's like possible to get it. It seems possible to get it perfect. And it's like, when that like perfect thing gets in my head, it's hard to sometimes hard to let it go. So.

Matt:

Yeah. We we've spent a lot of time in notion to we, you know, it's things that are highly customizable are often not the best tools, right? Like it's,

Dan:

Yeah.

Matt:

know, I appreciate the software that has opinion sometimes.

Bekah:

My, uh, right now I've just collected way too many different ways of doing things. Like, you know, I've got all these apps to help me with planning or note taking or, you know, what, there's just way too many of them. So I feel like I'm just very I'm or nothing kind of person. And so I can't. All of these need one thing and notion is the rule them all up. Apparently.

Matt:

And so then, you know, circling back, like Bekah, you have this awesome job. You're an community manager. Did you have those started the Virtual Coffee, or was that something that you learned and kind of just figured out going through the.

Bekah:

when I, when I was in undergrad, I graduated in three years. So I took a bunch of credits, but I was also in 10 clubs and I was an officer in like five of them. So I feel like been a lifelong journey of community building and many points where I've tried to reject that. Like, please me know. Be in a hole by myself and not talk to people. Uh, but I keep coming back to it. I feel like finally hit the point where I'm like, like this, this is a skillset I should utilize it and figure out how I can best do that thing. So yeah. It's it's I guess part of me.

Matt:

That's really cool. I, you know, I think. Like one of the things that, uh, you know, I was hard to figure out and I'm, I'm hoping, I think it's okay. I'm kind of like left turning the conversation a little bit. One of the things that was really hard to figure out in, in running a business, it was like, how do you hire? And you need to figure it all out from scratch. Because like, we had hired a bunch of people that make stuff IBM, but it was all a very catered experience. Like we had, we outsourced all of the hard. And we got these like just like 50 incredible candidates and we would divide them up on our team and figure out who's going to do round one, round two round three. Right. Um, and that like interviewing is easy, but hiring is hard and hiring is all that other stuff. It's like finding people and evaluating them. And, and then, you know, you read about all the bad things that happen to hiring process, and you don't want to do those and you want to do the good things and you want to get the right person and the right people. Um, thing that has always stand out to me is personal. And it's, it's probably not surprising given the history I just described. Right. Like I, like, I value them a lot, but I think that when somebody comes in and they say, Hey, I made this thing why I made it. And here's like how it's important for small businesses, especially. So helpful because it's like, the person thinking about a need on the other side of what they're doing. And like, you know, it's, don't have tickets where we're working through. We're too small. We, you know, we don't have a ton of process around things, but when people come in and I imagine this is the case for you, Bekah, you do this amazing community management and all this other stuff. And Virtual Coffee as this incredible example of you doing that in tech at scale. And. That's awesome.

Bekah:

Yeah. I mean, and that's what led to the job that I have right now. I wasn't looking for work. Um, my team lead reached out to me and it was based on Virtual Coffee and somebody else had, uh, who I'd interviewed with, who had reached out to summer. Um, Because they knew about Virtual Coffee. You recommended me like I was on the top of their list. And so once he started looking into Virtual Coffee, um, I think he watched some of our lunch and learn videos and read blog posts. Like there, there is, uh, um, my community building resume is out there because of all of the things that we do. And so. Yeah, it is, like a project. I hadn't really thought about it that way, but is this, this living resume of all of the things that I've been working on.

Matt:

Totally. Dan watch out because Phillips is going to come knocking. I say, Hey, I heard at least with our light bulbs,

Dan:

Yeah,

Matt:

of Shu.

Dan:

they're going to come and say. I have this product, this product will finally solve all your problems.

Matt:

Yeah, I hope all the, our conversation with this podcast has an index because we'll go to these Google searches. I mean, that's just going to be all Philips hue, light bulbs.

Bekah:

But we are open for sponsorships.

Dan:

That's right.

Matt:

Oh my gosh. Yeah. it's a, that's really interesting. I think those personal projects, they, they really. And, um, you know, and certainly there's merit, if you're going to a bootcamp and going through that, like you want to stay on task. Right. And if you're going to get great learning, great feedback by building something that like the boot camp is saying, oh, we're going to build like a cart. That's totally cool. Right. But those, those other pieces of like, Hey, I've got this skill sat down. I can use it to really do anything. It is just so attractive to me in a hiring process. it really separates people out. Um, and I'd imagine that's been the experience for both of you, from what you've described to.

Dan:

And, and like, if you are, your only projects coming out of a bootcamp or what you did in the. And everybody else is trying to get a job too. You know, everybody is going to have the same set of projects. Right. And so that's, that's another thing that's doing those. maybe it's, maybe there's not enough time to do it while you're in the bootcamp, you know, maybe kind of do it after, but the, those personal projects, I totally agree with you, man. It's it, it says, it says so much about you without even speaking. And then it also gives you something to talk

Matt:

No.

Dan:

to talk about because you did it and you know, and you know, so it's not a theoretical. Thing or a school assignment that you weren't connected with, you know? Um, and again, it doesn't have to be world changing or a successful product or like that. Right? You, you were talking about that Chrome extension that you made, that's literally just you and your wife. Right.

Matt:

Yeah.

Dan:

and that's it like, that's, that's a cool project. And I would like, like I enjoyed hearing about it and I would, if I was hiring, I would also enjoy hearing about it. It doesn't, you know, you didn't like sell it to somebody or, it doesn't have to be so.

Bekah:

Yeah.

Dan:

a huge thing. It's, it's just, uh, the thing that you decided to do on your own, and you figured out how to do it and that's, that's the cool part.

Bekah:

We just wrapped up a hackathon at deep gram. And one of our participants I think, five submissions and this is a month long hackathon and submission were all interesting and they were all beautiful. The design was really great. I'm really terrible at design. And the fact that all of these looked really wonderful. Were meaningful and interesting projects was great. Um, but I interviewed that participant for a blog post highlight being able to hear the stories behind it, hear how he communicated, what he did, his approach, how he did it. He's a person and the top of my book that I would recommend for a job, but I know that he's looking and he's going to be more actively looking soon. so when anything comes up, I know that I'm going to reach out to that person. So, know, if it doesn't catch the eye of somebody who's doing the

Matt:

Um,

Bekah:

might catch the eye of somebody position where people reach out to them and say, Hey, do you know anybody? Like, yes, I do. This person would be really, really great for this.

Matt:

Yeah, that's, uh, that's really interesting, you know, and another sort of related thing that I hear a lot of hiring managers articulate, and there's famous examples of this too, is, is like a really strong indicator of success in a business. Or in a particular role is how has that person achieved a success or excellence in a completely different area. Right. And, um, you know, the Shopify had this famous example where their CEO gave an internship or a job to someone because they are like ranked in the at start. You know, and there's like similar sort of conversation and sales, you know, this other sort of area around people who have had athletic success, you know? So there, there are people who are sales managers, they were like, oh, you were a division two athlete and track. Like that's a really strong indicator for this other type of thing. And I think like you also see it in like volunteers, I'm like the stuff you did and we're describing it in university of Bekah. Right. Um, it's interesting. These signals, because the way that we typically interview is like in front of a whiteboard and we just, we know it's, it's a, it's hard process to take on anyways, all that.

Bekah:

Yeah, it is really hard. And I think even hearing a lot of conversations around hiring where people are trying to do things there, there's still so much of the process where we're stuck inside this box. So than like really trying to. Rethink how we do the entire process. We're like, well, we're going to rethink, but still have to do all of these things. And we have to ask these questions because have to, you, you don't have to, that's not, is that indicating? And how does that tell you whether or not that's going to be a good person for you to work with or a good team for you to join? How do we the way that we're. Doing hiring, how we're onboarding new people, how we are looking at junior developers in this hiring process. I can't, in my mind, it has to be, there's a much bigger shift that needs to happen. Then, you know, these tiny changes that we keep seeing happening.

Matt:

Yeah, I, you know, I, there's a part of me that. Um, and I, I want to sort of say this and that like the best possible way that I wish that people generally were more deliberate about what they job. And this has been something that's been incredibly important for me. And, you know, there's those books that like, sort of get you thinking on these topics, but. Like really early on for me was that at that juncture where I'm like, oh, like a career in tech specifically, there's a shift I had, you know, a couple of years after learning code where I've very deliberately, I want to run a business. I want to run a technology based business. And that wasn't for the sake of wanting to do that. It was because of these other things that I wanted. I literally had a moment where I sat down and I said, what do I want it in my work life? And, you know, for me, they were things that were connected to autonomy. I wanted like in a perfect world, I would work where, and when I wanted to, I would like, I was always confused that we had this like 40 hour a week. That we often live in, like, why does that, why does that have to exist? You know, like what are the reasons that the edges of that box are there? Um, and like what if one week I want to work less? And when we, I wanted that type of control to, um, you know, there were these, I wanted to work on any type of problem that I wanted. I wanted to have the potential for financial independence, um, you know, these types of things. And that put like, you know, to me, that was. Really helpful because it determined the types of jobs that I wanted to work at and why. And so when I started applying to, I, like, I think I applied to, know, IBM and Microsoft aside because I never actually put an application into, um, either company, once you get in it, I just want to go there, but it's a different process. And, um, but identified a to technology companies to be a programmer and that my purpose and applying to them was, you know, the, the conventional wisdom that working at a startup will help you do a startup. And that's what I wanted. I wanted to run my own business. So I was applying to a very particular type of company because the purpose of that learning was to help me do this thing later. And you know, the funny thing about people who are junior developer developers and who are graduating like in 2022, isn't a very short period of time, but they're the hiring. And, you know, I I, my gut feeling is that if were approaching that process with like a very deliberate set of values and intentions, that hiring would change on the backend later, um, or maybe not.

Bekah:

Yeah, that's interesting. I hadn't really thought about that and it can be really hard, especially with many people looking for jobs on the market right now. And that I spent a lot of time telling people. When you join your first team, it should be about the people and not the project, because seen so many people jump into particularly ed tech companies. I don't know. It's just generally ed tech, that's toxic or what, but just bad experiences. And there's been the whole like trade-off thing. Well, you know, we've got a great mission. Well, but. Doing a terrible job of managing a team, being kind to other people, you know, like those things matter.

Matt:

Yeah. You know, I, I, if I was, you know, the, at tech and I completely echo that sentiment, I think it's totally correct. Video video game industry. Yes. Right. For as not being a great place to work. If there was one thing that I learned working in big tech, like, uh, you know, going from a college where you're, know, you like, you make this amount of money, you need a $1,500 raise a year and it's unionized and X and Y and Z. then like, I remember the week that I. IBM. They flew me down to Silicon valley for two weeks. We had this, we had like this event and there was like this music and it was just all catered and it was all free and it was crazy the amount of money. And I got the opportunity to work with you. It was a really great, I loved both of those jobs. Loved, loved, loved both of them. And I think one of the things that I've learned is that of the things that we want in an employer. A really, really strong indicator is the health of the business. If you want to, if you want to work, you know, my, my wife works at Shopify. She loves it there. they have Shopify makes so much money that they can hire people that all they do is think about diversity and equity and they hire another, they have a whole team that all they do is think about culture and they have whole teams that do all do nothing, but, know, run an internal events and try to make that a great place to work. You know, you can do that if you've got a ton of money and, you know, in terms of diversity in tech, AI team at Microsoft, um, we were extremely diverse by every standard. We had more women than men, and that's an AI where like and data science is enormously behind computer science. It's where computer science was like 15 years ago. Um, we were able to have a diverse team at Microsoft because we could You know, w we could go hire the best and the best one to work for us. um, we can afford it. there's a million other examples like that. So like, I think going full circle, lot of ed tech can be a really tough place to work because that's a really, really hard business. And you're, you're pinching every corner and usually you are, same with the video game industry is it is like, you know, if that game does well, congratulations. But if it doesn't it's it's a tough environment to work in. Um, So, you know, if you want to have a really great place to work, I think the best, most simple indicator you can look at is like how much money did they raise in the last round? If it's a startup, if it's a publicly big publicly traded company, is it growing, look at their stock chart for five years? Does it go up? You know, if it does probably a great place to work, if it's flat, it, you know, be getting like, you might not have budget to go to that next conference. It's uh, you know, and similarly people might not be attracted to work there in the same.

Bekah:

Yeah, I think that's great advice. Um, I want to thank you so much for being here with us today and having this conversation. There's a lot of really takeaway is I feel like from all this stuff that we talked about here, is there anything that you want to share before we leave or any last words of wisdom for our listeners?

Matt:

No. Thanks everyone. The thank you in there for having me. It's a, it's great. If else. I think one of the things we all take away from today is build personal projects go make stuff like, you know, the, the old Y com motto make, make stuff people want, stuff you want.

Dan:

Yeah,

Matt:

It's cool.

Bekah:

we want to see them.

Matt:

Yeah, totally. Thank you so much for having me.

Dan:

thanks, Matt. This is awesome. Thank you for listening to this episode of the Virtual Coffee Podcast. This episode was produced by Dan Ott and Bekah Hawrot Weigel. If you have questions or comments you can hit us up on Twitter at VirtualCoffeeIO, or email us at podcast@virtualcoffee.io. You can find the show notes, sign up for the newsletter, check out any of our other resources on our website VirtualCoffee.io. If you're interested in sponsoring virtual coffee you can find out more information on our website at VirtualCoffee.io/sponsorship. Please subscribe to our podcast and be sure to leave us a review. Thanks for listening and we'll see you next week!


The Virtual Coffee Podcast is produced by Dan Ott and Bekah Hawrot Weigel and edited by Andy Bonjour at GoodDay Communications.